Neale 00:09
Welcome to another episode of the Another Bright Spark Podcast. I’m your host Neale Mighall and today we have a very special guest, business coach Roy Newey. Roy, welcome.
Roy 00:18
Thank you.
Neale 00:18
You’re welcome. Good to have you
Roy 00:20
At last.
Neale 00:21
At last. We got there eventually. I’ve known you for a good couple of years now, but for the people watching this, give me the elevator pitch. Who is Roy Newey, business coach?
Roy 00:35
Okay. So, I left school at 16. I failed all of my exams. I remember standing in the hall with my mum when she opened my exam results and it said next to the 9-0 levels I’d taken U slash C, U slash C, U slash C. And my mum said, I’m not sure what that means darling. You know, I would have expected an A or a B or a D or what. I said, right. So, she went to ring the school and our phone was underneath the stairs and she, I saw her ring in the school and as they explained my disaster of results, she was going, oh yes. Oh right. Oh yes. No problem. And she turned to me and she went like that. And she came up to me and she said, well, I’ve spoke to the school and they’ve explained and apparently it means upper class darling. And I went, great. And she said, and here’s your guitar. We thought we’d get you for your results. Thanks mum. I’m going to go and play footy. And I went out to the park to play footy. And then I was unemployed. I couldn’t get a job.
Neale 01:47
But you had your guitar and your football career.
Roy 01:50
Yes. And the, the government put me on a YTS scheme and they placed me in the health service and they were really kind and helped me understand about working in teams and working in an office and I was working in finance. And then by the time I was 18, a trendy restaurant opened at the end of the street where I lived. And so I wanted to work in there because that looked exciting. And so I started working there in the evening and then by the time I got to 20, I realised that I was only really going to work in the day. So I would get home, have a shower and go to work at night. Yeah. So much more transparent utter this May. I left the civil service and went to work in a restaurant. And then by the time I was 23, I’d saved up enough money and I opened up my own restaurant.
Neale 02:41
Which is What’s Cooking?
Roy 02:43
What is cooking? Yeah.
Neale 02:43
Yeah. I used to go there when we were kids. So I know it quite a lot.
Roy 02:47
Hawaiian burger.
Neale 02:48
Very fond memories.
Roy 02:49
Yeah. And so then I ended up with a florist and a coffee shop and a bakery and a wholesale food and veg and a wholesale butchers.
Neale 03:00
Candlestick maker…
Roy 03:02
The only one I didn’t have was a candlestick maker. And I did that for about nine years and then a group wanted to buy the leaseholds of all the sites so I took the opportunity to leave it and in 1987 there was a TV programme on in Granada called Flying Start and I won this thing and a 40,000 prize, Tony Wilson and so I started being asked to do speeches and the government would have me out saying you know being in business it’s great and then they rang me up one day and said what are you you know can you do this big speech for us coming up and I said I don’t think I should because I’ve actually sold my business and they went what are you doing I said I’m just at home doing nothing thinking about what I’m going to do next and I went nah come on what you’re really doing I said I’m at home doing nothing thinking about what I do and they said well I’ve got a job for you and so a couple of weeks later I’m walking into the offices of a regeneration agency in Liverpool in Tivebarn Street and I’m the deputy chief executive of this thing which was ridiculous because I’d only been cooking pizzas and serving bottles of beer like you know glasses yeah and I was given 550 staff and 100 million pounds a year to invest in Liverpool at a time when it was still recovering from the Derek Hatton era and all right in the 80s and yeah all that kind of stuff yeah all that nonsense yeah and I did that job for seven years and they got 1.7 billion of objective one funding so over the lifetime I was there we invested just under three billion and I got lots wrong I got in some really tough scrapes I made many mistakes but I got enough right that I got away with it yeah and then seven years and the place looks Liverpool significantly better today than it did in the 80s but there’s still lots to do it was a huge change
Neale 03:03
I grew up in the same I was just a couple years behind you so but I remember that change from when I was a teenager because you used to go to Liverpool and there was nothing really there you know it was like when dad used to go to the football match so for me because he’s a big Liverpool was Anfield that was the only place that I’d go to the shops occasionally with mum she’d go to the C&A and the BHS or they get a breakfast but that was kind of it, there was a museum that we went to as a school trip maybe… but it was very neglected as a city. So what were the sort of starting points what did you do?
Roy 03:03
Unfortunately somebody came along and invented the container for ships and so you go from uh 1967 when Liverpool was a conservative run city and then they invent the container and then 40 000 semi-skilled men uh suddenly weren’t needed at the docks and don’t need all of the boats or because this container just yeah on the back almost overnight 40 000 men lose their job so when I started my role four in ten men were unemployed, forty percent male unemployment, and that’s a lot of people, and with few skills other than they’re warned, and they know how to shift a sack of something, and so they were left in a really difficult position.
Roy 07:11
So what you’ve got to do is you’ve got to do two things simultaneously. You’ve got to take the unemployed people and give them as many opportunities as possible to gain skills in areas of labour which are relevant, and then you’ve got to convince employers to come into Liverpool. And remember, Houston Station, we had to hide this big billboard and it said there’s only two strikers left in Liverpool, and one was Michael Owen, and the other one was Robbie Fowler, whilst you know, Fords were on strike for six months in Sweden. I would go, seriously? Just stick with the concept of the poster, you know? So you’ve got to try and convince employers to come in.
Roy 07:59
I’m going to tell you a naughty story. I was responsible for inward investment, and we had a large Canadian company come to visit Liverpool, and they needed a 2,000 person call centre. So we took them during the day to visit various centres, one of them was the old gas building in Bootle and took them around, whether. And that evening, we took them to the Liver Building on the top floor, and we had a very posh dinner. And so there was me, there was the head of Liverpool Council, there was the bishop, and the other bishop, and the rabbi, and the trade union leader, and you know, all the good and the great. And we’re all demonstrating to these three Canadians what a harmonious, partnership, and you know, this is the right place. Anyway, they had the starter, they had the main meal, chut-chat, and then they turned to me and said, quiet, and I’m the opposite the bishop with these Canadians alongside me. They turned to me and they said, we need to go now. So I said, oh, we’ve got dessert coming here, and coffee went, we need to go now. And they said, it’s, you know, and I went, all right, you must be tired. And they went, no, no, no, we want to go and see if we can find some prostitutes. So I, I heard this, I,
Neale 09:28
Next to the bishop?
Roy 09:28
Yes, you know, the other bishops chatting, I’m thinking, oh, oh, my, and I went, sorry, he said, we just need to take home, see if we can find some prostitutes. So I said, Oh, my God, right, right. I thought, now, what do you do? Do you say, excuse me, we’re not that sort of city? Or do you think a couple of prostitutes, 2000 jobs? So you’re like…
Neale 09:56
Well… 2000 and 2 jobs.
Roy 09:58
Yeah. So I thought, right, well, we’ll get your coats and, and they stood up and they were like, Oh, are you going? Yeah, they, they’re on the flights and, you know, they’re going over. Oh, sorry, you’re going. Please, please don’t say it. Please don’t get it. And get in the lift. And we’re going down. And this guy said, you know, it’s really important to find see if there’s any prostitutes. And I said, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. He said, because we offer 24 hour shifts. Right. And it’s part time work. And most of our staff are female. Okay. So they’ll be coming out of work from one shift about now, 11 o’clock. And I want to go back to that big building you showed us and make sure it’s not a place where prostitutes hang out. So our staff are safe. Yeah. Absolutely. I knew that. I knew that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Roy 10:55
But Liverpool is great.
Neale 10:57
Liverpool is never boring.
Roy 10:59
No, it’s people of Liverpool. Yeah. Fantastic. Um, in fact, another little segue as I was reminded on Saturday, went to Anfield on Saturday, uh, to the Bruce Springsteen concert. And Paul McCartney came on.
Neale 11:16
Wow. So that’s a very special concert.
Roy 11:18
Yeah. But what was more special than that, a great care and support and dignity was shown by all the staff at Anfield. Um, but we went at two o’clock to park our car. And what did you hear at two o’clock? You heard Paul McCartney and Bruce Springsteen rehearsing ahead of the concert. 82 and 75. But they’ve been doing it for 60 years and they are like…
Neale 11:51
… a well oiled machine.
Roy 11:53
Let’s have a few hours just to make sure we’re where we need to be. And that’s what a lot of people in business miss is that you might have been doing it for years, but the importance of practicing and training and gaining new skills is huge. And like that you can get left behind, AI. People are going to get left behind only. So anyway. So did that, did all the regeneration. That was great. And then Tony Blair came along and he said, we don’t really like that type of quango. We want this type of quango. You know, uh, visual development agencies. I said, that’s fine. Passed over and then, um, was home doing nothing. Saw a business that was for sale, um, uh, or opportunity within a business. And, um, they were turning over 3 million and joined the company, uh, bought into it and we grew up to 180 million and it was doing regeneration, which I now knew what regeneration was. And I could spell it, which as somebody with dyslexia, that was, that was really important.
Neale 12:58
That was really handy! Really handy!
Roy 13:00
Regeneration, I don’t know how you spell that. So did that, and then we sold and it was, so I opened the business in France, Germany, Israel, Poland, um, Spain, uh, Pakistan, India, Australia, and would spend the next 12 years just going around the world, identifying people who were living in poverty and…
Neale 13:23
…how we can regenerate and get them back up and …
Roy 13:25
…design the solutions to restore self-esteem and confidence. And I sold that in 2015. And then since then I’ve been, um, uh, chairman of 150 companies, helping them do the same.
Neale 13:37
You’ve seen some fantastic growth. I mean, from 3 million to 120, 180, sorry, Roy. Yes. Get my stats right, please.
Roy 13:47
Yeah. It’s huge from 65 stuff to 5,000.
Neale 13:50
Yeah. It’s unbelievable growth. I mean, it’s one of the things that I think you’re really good at, uh, in my experience is, is sort of telling sort of hard truth, but in a very relatable and, you know, humorous way. It’s, you don’t take any nonsense when you’re advising because there’s no, there’s no time for it, is there?
Roy 14:08
No. And anything that I am pointing out about what an individual needs to adjust or whatever, I have committed that crime multiple times. I’m a serial offender. You know what I mean?
Neale 14:22
And you have to be to learn.
Roy 14:23
I’m a dim, I’m a dim wit. So I’m able to say, look, I know you’re doing that whatever, but you can’t. And also, as you say, I am, uh, I have a reputation for not ducking the issue.
Roy 14:36
It’s just better to say it. Uh, because sometimes when I’ve been told off for doing something, they’ve been so kind to me and so decent that afterwards I’ve not realized I’ve been told off. And so I don’t change my behavior. You know what I mean? Yeah. Um, whereas my wife has taught me the benefits of ‘Roy. Yeah. There’s a line there. Do not step over the line.’ Yeah. So, yeah. So I think you’ve got to, you got to be honest, you got to, you got to be a decent kind, very humble, recognize that, uh, thereby that path you’re going down. And I have trodden it already. And this is why you might want to go a different way.
Neale 15:15
I think I’ll always remember our first conversation on the phone. Um, you work for a company that I’ve gone for an interview for, and I think I’ve been for a few interviews and this was the final sort of the ones that, because you were the non-exec director at the time. And, um, you said to me, I always remember you said, ‘Neale, I like to keep things really simple. This company needs leads. Yes. Are you able to generate those leads?’
Roy 15:37
‘Because if you are, we’re going to be best mates.’
Neale 15:39
Exactly!
Roy 15:40
‘And if you’re not, it’s going to end in tears. So don’t take the job.’
Neale 15:43
Yeah. Fantastic. As well as a business coach, obviously you have written a couple of books. Your latest one is here. Yes. I do want to talk about this because I think this is, this is, uh, ‘Avoiding the Curse, Avoiding the Curse of the Undead’ by Roy Newey. Um, it’s a really interesting book. Uh, it’s, it’s sort of centered around businesses who are carrying dead weight, sort of employees who might have been there for quite a while, who are sort of uninspired, you know. How deadly is that for, for an organization and what can they do about it?
Roy 16:15
So, so the metaphor that, that I developed like 20 years ago, and it was a story that I would relay to people. And of all the stories I’ve relayed to people, it’s the one they say. ‘Roy, I’ve not seen you for 10 years. I’ll never forget that story about the bloody train. It’s me on that.’ Um, and I’ve got a number of people who’ve contacted me and said that that’s me. You’re writing about it. So the issue is you start a business and you’ve got a train and you’re in platform A and you get a number of people on board who are applicable for the startup that you are. And they are absolutely competent and the right people to have on the train. And so let’s imagine that one of the people that gets on board our train at startup is a, um, a local single mum who does bookkeeping.
Neale 17:04
She’s available part-time.
Roy 17:06
You can’t afford a full-time one. You can’t afford an accountant, but you can afford this lady. And as long as you drop your Tesco bag of receipts off on a Friday, she’ll fiddle her way through them and pass it back to you with all the checks written out and all you have to do is sign them.
Neale 17:21
Right. Come Monday morning, all done and…
Roy 17:23
Fit for purpose. Yeah. But then as the train moves on and you get station B and station C and station D, the business is getting more complex. There’s more carriages.
Roy 17:32
There’s more people on the train. There’s more to do. So by the time we get to station E, she’s working three days a week in the business. And by the time you get station J, she’s working full-time in the business. By the time you get to station K, she’s crying in the toilets twice a week because…
Neale 17:48
… too much workload. She can’t cope. We’ve got too much balance sheets, too many bags of receipts and all the rest.
Roy 17:53
Bank on the phone and led, too much. So at that point, if you’re the driver of the train, then you have a responsibility to sit down with that person saying, ‘Listen, Debbie, you’ve been brilliant. Without you, we wouldn’t have got here. You stepped in when we couldn’t afford an accountant. But I’m going to be honest with you. I’m worried about the impact this job’s having on you. And I know that you can’t make the commitments to the business because of your other family responsibilities’.
Neale 18:26
‘And it’s nothing personal’.
Roy 18:27
‘It’s nothing personal. It’s true. You are a really good person. So here’s the deal. And when they’re pulling at the next station, those doors are going to open and I’m going to put a check in your hand and I’m going to say, ‘Thank you very much’. And I’m going to speak to my network and I’m going to find you a job that’s suitable for your talents, your career and your aspiration. And they’ll be a cream cake and they’ll be candles on it. It’ll be the best brand. And whenever you want to come back and show us the grandchildren, you’ll be welcome here because your picture stays on the wall. You’re a hero. But to protect you, because I know where this train’s going and I know how busy it’s going to be in another year, another two years, three years. And I’m not prepared to put you through that mincer and require you to be brilliant’. So, and when they step off the train, the doors close, these doors open and the finance control gets on. But now as a train owner, you know that when we get to station R, the finance control is getting off and the FD is getting on. And so you learn as the train driver that people will be on your train in your business for a period of time while they’re able to contribute. And then it’s the best thing for everybody to thank them, recompense them and wish them well as they move off. And the final part of that is, that’s true for the train driver because with my business, we grew it to 180 million. And at that point, it was the right time for me to get off. And the person that bought our business has gone on to grow it into in excess of a billion. And I didn’t have the capability to do that. So I could have stayed, strangled the business, stunted its growth, or let the next train driver on and say, learning all the best here and that’s what’s happened.
Roy 20:20
So as you say there are unfortunately times when in the train we get some staff who have been with us for a long time, they’ve won awards, they got us into Africa, they did great stuff but their ability to make a contribution now is diminished and they know it, their families know it, they hang about in the shadows, they stay at the back of the room when there’s meetings, they don’t get asked for their advice anymore and they’re usually quite highly paid because they’ve been there for a significant period of time. So if you allow too many ‘undead’ in your business, splodge, it’s going on.
Neale 20:59
Yeah I mean what can you, I mean if it’s definitely time to go, is there areas where training, can you revitalize?
Roy 21:09
Yeah you can and I think going back to that thing about frankness, if you sit down and you say ‘Look, Neale, you’ve been great, you got us into Africa, without you we’d have never negotiated that contract but for the last few years I know you’ve been struggling and I know that’s not your fault. So we can either invest in you but when you come back into the workforce you’re going to have to take that ugly job on or that additional responsibility or if you think the other option is available for you I’m happy to put some money in your hands and you get the chance to walk away and go and pursue a career and I’ll help you and you’re always welcome. Which do you want? The walk away, the ugly job or the risk?’
Neale 21:56
It’s a difficult one.
Roy 21:58
‘Because I know where the train’s going, I know, you know, when we went from 65 staff to 5,000 staff you know every week that the scares got bigger yeah and the consequences and the risks get bigger’. So and I understand this book, I understand the metaphor because I’ve minced people, I’ve seen people get minced, I’ve seen people get crushed and that’s not fun. It’s not good for them, absolutely it’s not good for all the people that are working around them.
Neale 22:37
It’s not good for the organisation as a whole.
Roy 22:39
It’s not good for me watching it happen thinking we’ve done that to that person.
Neale 22:44
And there’s a lot of responsibility isn’t there because having worked on board you as you sort of progressed through your career I’ve sort of realised when I started off at work just as you kind of you’re clocking in, you’re clocking out, you want to do a good job. You don’t really think that the organisation is basically paying the everyone’s bills so everyone’s got a mortgage or rent to pay and if the whole structure collapses everyone suffers from it. So it’s a huge responsibility.
Roy 23:12
Yeah and so you have to be the kindly person that steps in and says ‘Neale, I don’t think this is a good fit for you anymore. Let’s talk about it and let’s if necessary let’s work together for the next six months so that you can move on to something much better’. This isn’t about abruptly or catastrophically sacking people it’s not that it’s about having a decent conversation with people that helps them recalibrate where they want to be and if they come back and say stuff that I want that ugly job it’s like great bro I’m going to help you get that ugly job then.
Neale 23:49
Great but can’t maintain the way it is.
Roy 23:53
No, can’t because um and also when I was in the government in Liverpool we got to a point where I had to let somebody go and this person had 30 staff and so it was all choreographed: nine o’clock he comes in ‘Hello, Jim!’ 9:45 he’s going out with a bin bag and whatever and it was difficult and I was very wary of the reaction I was going to get from 30 scousers who worked for him so I’ve got them all in the boardroom at 10 o’clock and I walked in and said ‘Okay everybody I’ve got some news I’m afraid this morning I’ve had to let ‘Blah’ this person go’ And this scouser sat there and he went ‘About bloody time! I wondered, are you losing it? Were you thick? He was a menace for the last three years he’s been a menace!’ And I thought, and nobody, you know…
Neale 24:45
Yeah, it was the exact opposite…
Roy 24:46
… to what I was thinking and they they all thought ill of me for accommodating this incompetent person who was making their lives a misery and accepting it so you know being a leader is is ugly at times but that’s what that’s why we get paid more money that’s what you’ve got to do.
Neale 25:08
So a lot of people who come to us typically have an idea for a project so we can sort of build them up get a prototype ready or we can scale the prototype at every stage they’re always seeking funding because they always need more money takes next level whether that’s angel investment or or bigger um. What what do you think where people fall down when they’re trying to seek funding what is it a case of they don’t know what proposition they’ve got or they don’t understand their own business, or…?
Roy 25:38
I think one, one of the biggest problems I see is it’s far too easy to raise money. Raising money is really easy whether it be angels or whether you’re at the bank or p or vc houses it’s like raising money is really easy. The difficult bit is paying it back so the the worst thing the worst thing I can do, and I’ve seen I’ve seen it, is help a half through idea half thought through idea gain the finance to do something and then as you’re walking away and you look as assured you think they they would have been better not raising that money right yeah yeah so I get many people will approach me and say can you help me raise the money and the first thing I’d have to do is to look in their eyes and look at this business plan and think ‘Is this the right thing? Do you know the relentless level of grotesque horridness that you’re inviting upon yourself?’ Because I’ve never met a truthful person who told me being in business was brilliant you know was like…
Neale 26:52
‘I love it! I don’t know sleepless nights I sleep like a baby!’
Roy 26:56
Yeah it’s ‘We’re making real unions’ I’ve never come across that person, it’s relentless it’s grotesque it’s stressful, stretches the family yeah
Neale 27:11
Eats your time.
Roy 27:13
Yeah, and you know there can be a big prize but for many people there isn’t a big prize I’ve sat with too many people and switched the lights off. And they’re like ‘Can’t believe it’s come to this!’ There you go so if you’re going to go into it so that the first book I wrote the ‘Ready, Set, Grow!’ The first chapter of that is trying to convince people who are considering to go into business not to do it, don’t do it, honestly.
Neale 27:32
It’s great great idea for a business coach try and reduce your your market.
Roy 27:32
Yeah well because if you’ve sat with people who have lost everything yeah including their self-worth including their marriages including their relationships with their kids and they’ve lost everything and they’re going to be in debt for several years after, they switch the lights out it’s like this misery is not something you should lightly invite upon yourself. But if you’re yeah up for it, got the fire, if you’ve got clarity if you’ve got drive if you’re prepared to do that…
Neale 27:32
… hate your wife and kids…
Roy 27:32
Wasn’t expecting you to say that! If you’re prepared to do that and you’ve got clarity and you’re prepared to make the tough decisions you go for your boots. But those kids men and women who wish to go to the top you you gotta have something very special yeah there’s like you can see these like serpents behind it you know and I go and I say to them sometimes ‘Do you, can I ask you a straightforward question?’ They go ‘Yeah’ I say ‘Do you have demons?’ And they go ‘?’ That’s what you need.
Neale 27:32
Steam comes out, yeah, you need to go for it.
Roy 27:32
Because it’s it’s inviting, relent…
Roy 28:59
I think grotesque and misery and all that. Yeah, great. But maybe the worst part of it is it’s relentless you never get to the place you’re expecting to get to and so the the effort required is like inhuman or I found it so, yeah, and the people I was with that many people just get exhausted along the way. At 180 million I was…
Neale 29:27
That was your cap.
Roy 29:28
Yeah
Neale 29:28
And you knew it was time.
Roy 29:29
Yeah
Neale 29:30
I mean that must have been a really hard decision to make. How did you…
Roy 29:32
No it wasn’t. No, it wasn’t because the torment had got to the point where just, you know, I remember being in one of our board meetings and now a year before we successfully sold and ‘Sir this’ and ‘Sir that’ and ‘Lady this’ that we got to join the board And and they were all sort of discussing, you know, mainly in-depth stuff and whatever.
Neale 30:00
you know in the europer class Oh levels
Roy 30:03
And the most competent thing I could do was pour out the tea and coffee. So you realized it because we were dealing, we had… This has turned over 180 million. We’ve won a contract for 1.2 billion over seven years on top of that. We were managing several hundred million pounds worth of European funds on behalf of the government of which we were taking a slice. So although our turnover was 180 million there was possibly a billion and a half floating across the desk. And you know when things go wrong at that, you know, there needs to be a micron out and all of a sudden…
Neale 30:39
Big difference. Yeah
Roy 30:41
People are dangling from ropes. Yeah. Yeah, it’s not nice.
Neale 30:43
No, not at all. It’s interesting, isn’t it? I always um When I’ve I’ve sort of like built teams not to that same extent sort of marketing teams and in the past I’ve always pretty early on sort of gone ‘Oh, I get on really well with them. They’re very similar’ So you sort of pick those you’re sort of people that you want to kind of work with. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah But through experience you actually have completely different mindsets and because I’m quite spontaneous I think I’m fairly creative and I tend to work best right up to 11th hour, which isn’t really good all the time. So if you can have someone who’s maybe a little bit calmer, sort of better organized, you know That’s not a bad thing to have in your team. Um, and when you’re advising people because I think you’ve worked with organization. We worked together. It was quite a quite a small team. How do you advise like team building and you say, if you’ve got a little startup. What what what would your advice be?
Roy 31:37
So sorry to sort of um get a bit academic on this here. There’s this book you may well have heard of called, um Patrick Lencioni, um, which is ‘The Five Dysfunctions of Teams’ And like with all good books, he’s he’s written something which is just really common sense. To build a good team what you’ve got to do and, which we were never able to do when we worked together, is to get everybody in the room and offer to just be a bit honest with each other and say ‘You get right up my nose’.
Roy 32:13
Yeah, you know and ‘Actually you don’t know but it you know 20 years ago I was a um, you know, I was on ‘Dancing on Ice’ and I came third’. And I was like, ‘Really?’ So instead of seeing the FD now we see someone who was on ‘Dancing on Ice’ or yeah, somebody who you know goes tadpole-ing at the weekend or plays a guitar in a band and and we get to know each other and we get to value that there’s a depth about this person as well as the role that I see them playing. One of the things that he promotes is you know, let’s have let’s have the argument. Let’s have the argument and let’s tough it out. But then when we walk out of the boardroom that that’s it It’s done. So get it off your chest. Say what needs to be said, don’t you know… which is what most businesses do. Yeah, and so you can build a really good team and during the time I had my business, um we had good teams, we had rotten teams, we had brilliant teams and we would have emerging teams because it doesn’t stay constant. And the book there is all about, you know, I play out the case study of people joining the business and it all looking bright and sunny in the beginning and then doesn’t work out and they’ve got to be gone.
Neale 32:15
And there needs to be friction there. So I work very closely with sales teams and, you know, it needs that sort of marketing and sales friction. So if I’m producing leads, sort of like throwing them over, I want sales to come back and say, 20 of them are awful. I want more of those. And then I’ll be like, well, actually you’ve not qualified that, that has actually potential. And there needs to be that sort of backwards and forwards in order to be successful. So there has to be friction. You have to have those conversations, I suppose.
Roy 32:15
One of the businesses I’ve worked with, they just spent £47,000 on going to a big exhibition in Germany. And I told them before they went, as you can imagine I would, and they came back and had 110 leads. And then three months later, I asked for the tracking data to see how many of them they’d followed up. It’s like, ‘Oh, they’re still in the oldie bag under the desk’. And it’s like, so we spent 47 grand for you all to go to Germany. You raised awareness of the business and then you’d be like, well, we’ve been busy. And you just think. Oh…
Neale 34:32
What terrible ROI! You’ve brought some recycling home, basically.
Roy 34:36
Yeah.
Neale 34:37
I was working for a beauty brand and we were launching this collagen supplement. And we paid, again, a lot of money for this show. And I was there with bells. I’m really proud of it. We built a brand new from scratch. It was just wonderful. I was really involved, really, really proud of it. And the sales team were basically a no-show. And it’s like, this is where you need to be. I can take the horse to water, but I can’t make it drink.
Roy 35:05
No, no, no. So that’s where you need the tension. That’s where you need someone to be able to say, you and me, bike shed, we need to sort this because if we don’t sort this out. But you’re right, yeah. Yeah, we’ve got to. But if it’s all kept nicey nicey, and it’s all kept very, you know, and I’m not saying that people should come into work or into the boardroom every day looking for a fight.
Neale 35:30
That’s not because that’s not, that’s not a workplace.
Roy 35:32
No, but where we have differences, where we have different views. And I learned a fantastic, fantastic thing. One of our board meetings, our Chief Executive said, you know, let’s say it was January. So target was here, sales were here and the board went. And this, this guy, it’s non-exec said when all nonsense has stopped, he just turned a clean page in his notebook. And he said ‘Can I just ask the Chief Executive, is it a blip or, or is it a trend?’ And the Chief Executive said, and as he said it, I went, he said ‘Oh, no, no, no, it’s just a, just a blip mate. Just a blip, we’ll sort it next month. We’ll sort it’. And I thought, oh, and he just wrote down the name of the Chief Executive, the date, blip, and closed his book. Next month, Chief Executive comes along, target was here, sales are here. This time the board go, well, this guy says nothing. And then I see him turn this book back to the page, crease the thing. And he said ‘Can I just ask the Chief Executive, is it still a blip or has it now become a trend?’ And this guy, I’ll call him Fred, says ‘Oh, no, it’s just, you don’t understand, it’s just a blip, just a blip, because, you know, we’ve got this and we’ve got leaflets going out, we’ve got this and it’s, oh, it’s gonna be sorted’. And then the third month, target’s here, Chief Executive said, sales are here. Board really go for it this time. And this guy just turns his page, creases the page, and he says ‘Can I ask the Chief Executive to step out for a moment?’ And I thought, yeah, this has come in. And as he goes out, this lovely old guy just says, um, ‘I can support any chief executive that’s struggling with sales: markets change, find ourselves our own place, but I can’t no longer support a chief executive who hasn’t identified when a blip has become a trend. I suggest we let him go’. And that was it. He never came back next day. Yeah, car, in bag, motorway services gone. Um, so is it a blip or a trend?
Neale 37:59
Um, we talk a lot about AI on this podcast because obviously it’s, it’s affected lots of different industries. We were chatting about this one actually. Um, how have you found it? So we’ve, one of the, one of the major things that we’ve been talking about and with engineering specifically is that a lot of young engineers, we’re trying to encourage them not to use it because if they’re asking chat GPT to write some code and it doesn’t work, they can’t fault find it because they’ve not built it from scratch. They haven’t had the initial learning. There’s like a worry of, you know, becoming too dependent on it and not being able to find a solution. I find it quite useful in like time saving, sort of like collecting data and give us some ideas and stuff, but how are, how are you finding it?
Roy 37:59
So I think, um, you, you know, as, uh, as Canute found, you can’t tell the sea not to come in, can you? You know, there’s an inevitability about the H1, there’s an inevitability about computerisation, there’s an inevitability about the internet.
Roy 39:11
So once change is coming, you are not going to be able to turn that one back. So therefore it’s about us all trying to utilise AI in the most successful way we can, depending on our role. And I did some training on AI about six months ago to sort of get qualified as an AI coach. And one of the questions that get asked the most is, will AI take my job? And I say, absolutely not. AI is not going to take your job. And they go, I said, but the person who knows how to use AI will, they’re absolutely going to take your job. So as you say, would you get it to write a whole marketing campaign? No. Can it do some of the legwork? Can it do it quicker than we can? And then whatever I use AI for and produce, then you sit down for another hour and you scan it and revise it and shape it. But can it do a lot of that legwork? Absolutely, it can. And it’s here to stay. It’s not going anywhere.
Neale 40:23
Well, it’s only going to improve as well, isn’t it? I’ve mentioned it before, we were having a chat about creativity. There’s an example of a video game could have produced a whole concept from start to finish and could write a basic story. So it can’t now, but will it? Yeah, everyone we spoke to, it’s like, if you’re not impressed by what it can do now, then you don’t understand it.
Roy 40:47
Yeah. If it’s done this in the space of a year, two years, three years, whatever, oh my giddy hands. Tom, my son was showing me the new Google one and it produces all these short videos and you just put the script in and it invents the characters. It’s like, oh my goodness gracious. The thing that really worries me is the number of people that will be sucked in by the fake news. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s a worry because they are so convincing.
Neale 41:21
My brother sent me a video of a John Lennon’s interview from like the 1960s. Now I’m a huge Beatles fan. I’ve got the t-shirt, biographies, the whole shooting back, there’s not a lot of… If I was on Mastermind, one of my special subjects probably would be the Beatles. And he sent me a video, I was like, I’ve never seen this before. This is, and he was talking as like, oh, John Lennon predicted this back in. And I was like, this is fake, but I was watching it and you just could not tell. Yeah. It was him being interviewed and I was like, is this, I had to look it up, oh yeah, John Lennon said videos like that. And you just can’t tell. No, there’s just, it’s on your phone, it’s there. There’s absolutely no way of doing it. It’s him speaking, but it’s not.
Roy 42:05
It’s crazy. My sister rang me on Sunday morning to say, just sort of best thing in case you get a message off Facebook that, Phil, my elder brother has got throat cancer and he can’t afford the drugs. So I went, oh, right. She said, it’s fake. It’s not Phil, he hasn’t gotten throat cancer. But a number of his friends had rung her up saying, look, I haven’t got am awful lot of money, but how much do you need for these drugs? So, you know, there’s a particular group of people who are, and I fear I might be one of them, you know, as my age progresses, it would be so easy to be sucked in, wouldn’t it? Yeah, absolutely. My daughter’s here, or they need this for that. Or yeah…
Neale 42:47
It is going to the stage where they can mimic a phone call or video easily, as you’re saying. That’s it. I think that there’s a great opportunity because, um, as you mentioned, your son, um, Tom is a, um, a chocolate business lady. Yes. There’s a little plug. I’ll put a link in the, under there for you in the description, of the fantastic chocolate. Um, but for like startups like him, to be able to sort of create quality content and videos and whatnot. I mean, the opportunities for small businesses is huge.
Roy 43:15
So, like with all new things, you use it in a way that is effective for you and which enables you to outpace the competitors for a period of time until they catch up. But I’m not besotted with it, do you know what I mean. I don’t write Valentine’s cards to my wife with it, I don’t write Valentine’s cards to my wife. You know what I mean? You use it in ways which is going to enhance your ability to serve your customers and give them a better service.
Neale 43:46
I want to wrap up with a story because you told me this, I thought it was fantastic. When you were working in ‘What’s cooking?’, you had, I don’t know if it was a person in the kitchen or on the waiting staff and they had an opportunity and you encouraged them to go for it?
Roy 44:00
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So, we had two chefs in the kitchen and I wasn’t really aware they had a band.
Neale 44:11
Well, it’s Merseyside, everyone’s got a band.
Roy 44:14
But what I was aware, he’d use the two long knives and we had these four litre ice cream containers that we put the tomatoes in, the onions in, all the time. And they’d be like, hard getting everybody in the restaurant at particular times and they’d be banging it. I’d say, ‘Miles, honestly, mate. Sorry, I just, you know’, And he’d tap the chopping board when he stood. And then we came one night and sat down by the two of them and they said, ‘Just wanted to ask your advice about something’, I said, ‘Go on, what is it?’ He said, ‘Got this opportunity that somebody’s offered our band a recording contract’. I went, ‘Wow’. And he said, ‘So I just wondered what you think, you know, because I trust you. Well, what do you think? Should we take it up? And if we did, and it didn’t work out with our jobs’, I went, ‘Are you mad?’ I said, ‘You could walk into any restaurant any day and start chopping salads or whatever. Honestly, mate, if you’ve got the opportunity, you’re doing it’. Brilliant. And they went on to become OMD – Orchestral Manoeuvres in the Dark. And yeah.
Neale 45:27
I just love the rest of your advice. It was like, should we do this?
Roy 45:30
And and yeah, and I’ve been to see them many times and they’re still they’re still doing the rounds. And yeah, they’re still great. Andy McCluskey. We’re like, I don’t know if I should be telling you this, but Andy McCluskey, the main singer, there was a wine bar in West Kirby. Like, you know, this wine bar at this time was the trendy place to be. And a great big long bar. We were in there one night and Andy McCluskey came in but with a brown paper bag on his head with two circles. And so I thought, ‘Idiot’. And everybody knew it was Andy McCluskey.
Neale 46:13
Just draw more attention.
Roy 46:18
Yeah. You know, pop star, and I’m like, uh, what a cool wine bar. I bet you’re all going to come up to me and ask me for something. And so everybody just ignored him. Everybody ignored him. And then after about, you know, 5 or 10 minutes, whatever, he pulled this bag off and said… ‘Fucking hell!’
Neale 46:36
Well that’s the mindset, there’s no pretension, there’s absolutely no pretension whatsoever.
Roy 46:43
What are you, you think? Sophie! Honestly! But, have you ever seen them?
Neale 46:51
No, I’ve not seen them live, no, obviously I’m aware of the band and heard the music, but yeah, I’ve never seen them play.
Roy 46:56
Goodness, he can dance, he is like, you know, a spider on acid, he’s got his own particular work, you know, and he’s entertaining, and the music’s great, so it’s a pleasure to have known them. I don’t know them today, you know? No, of course. But, but…
Neale 47:14
Nice to be part of the story.
Roy 47:15
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Neale 47:17
Fantastic. All right, Roy, thank you for your time, it’s been great.
Roy 47:20
All right, sir, thank you very much.
Neale 47:21
You are welcome back any time!
Roy 47:22
Thank you very much. Thank you.