Summary

This podcast episode features a conversation between Neale and Sharn, discussing Sharn’s career in recruitment and her experiences running her own recruitment business.

Sharn explains how she entered the recruitment field after studying business IT and gaining sales experience.

She discusses the differences between working for recruitment agencies and running her own business, emphasizing the importance of work-life balance and the ability to make her own decisions.

Sharn shares insights on recruitment practices, including the use of video interviews, the importance of personality in hiring, and the changing priorities of job seekers post-COVID.

She also offers advice for job candidates on preparing for interviews and maintaining their LinkedIn profiles.

The conversation covers topics such as the importance of education in hiring, the benefits of apprenticeships versus university degrees, and the current state of the job market, particularly in the clean energy and renewables sectors.

 

Transcript

Neale 00:00

Welcome to the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

 

Sharn 00:03

You’re welcome.

 

Neale 00:04

So without being rude, I’ve got an opening question.

 

Sharn 00:08

Okay.

 

Neale 00:09

I can’t imagine there’s many people in the world who have woken up one morning and thought, when I grow up, I want to be a recruiter.

 

Sharn 00:19

No, they don’t. No!

 

Neale 00:22

How did you get there?

 

Sharn 00:24

So, I went to uni, did business IT, hated it, but when I left, I wanted to do something in sales. So I started looking at stuff and I was like, oh, I want to be a recruiter because you can help people. I like helping people, a bit too kind for my liking, but I like helping people. I thought, oh, recruitment’s great. So I started to apply for recruitment jobs after uni, couldn’t get any because I didn’t have any sales experience. So I was like, oh, great.  And there’s some, you know how you have those people that are in health, they’re trying to say these credit cards or like sky, like whatever. So I sell MB &A credit cards commission only based in Manchester, I did it for six months because I was like, I need some sales experience. Then after that, I got my first recruitment job.  It’s just, I like helping people, but I also don’t like just sitting all day and you get to see clients and do fun stuff. So yeah, that was my reason.  Okay.

 

Neale 01:16

I’ve been looking over your LinkedIn profile, I’ve known you for quite a few years, but for the podcast had to do some more research. You’ve had quite an impressive list of organisations that you’ve worked for, lots of different roles and you can see progressions, team leadership and sales, recruitment executives.

 

Sharn 01:36

Yeah.

 

Neale 01:37

They’re all between sort of one to two years generally, and I’m not, well, you deck waves your own business. Yeah. It’s been five years going strong. Yeah.  Doing really well. Mm -hmm.  What’s the difference for you between the two? Why is your business a success? Okay.  Compared to other organisations. We’ve talked about this before, haven’t we? Yeah, a little bit.

 

Sharn 01:59

And there’s lots of things, I think it’s frustration of not being able to do what I wanna do, but also when I’ve done what I’ve needed to do in a business or as much as I think I can do, I’m like, oh, what next? And if I can’t get what I want, I’ll just move on. So it’s not for any other real reason or I just get frustrated because no one’s listening to my ideas that I know will work. So I’m like, okay, well, then I’ll go somewhere.

 

Sharn 02:29

Yeah.  So yeah, it’s not bad. But I’m kind of glad I’ve done it because I think if I hadn’t have left certain places, I think I would have just been stuck for ages because I think as you go in as a recruiter, most, most of the time you can only work your way up to like, I don’t know, business manager, but I didn’t want to work for a recruitment agency doing that and managing people and then billing. I wanted to try and work in house, which is what I got to do for a little bit.

 

Neale 02:54

Yeah.

 

Sharn 02:56

But it’s so political. It’s just.

 

Neale 02:58

And as you progress, you kind of move away from the coal face and you say you want to help people.

 

Sharn 03:03

Yeah, and you can’t do that working in -house because there’s certain things you’re allowed to do and not allowed to do. And if you’re just one number in a big organization, no one listens, so.

 

Neale 03:14

When you were a team leader, how did you manage that push and pull? So the pressure from the top to get the numbers, but also the demands on the team and your own workload as well. It’s a question asked as Jason earlier, actually, because he had management. How did you, how did you go from work with that?

 

Sharn 03:31

I actually found it really easy.

 

Neale 03:33

Okay.

 

Sharn 03:34

So I like it.  I like helping people. So when I managed the team, we had Hayes at that point, there was, we had multiple contracts. So it was like a shared service center.  So I would manage them. So I didn’t have, so we never went out on one work, but you’d have like the big weeks bring the work in. And then we’d, we’d work, we’d manage the accounts and it wasn’t bad because I like helping people. So I think being able to help people and get them to the level that they need to be, to be able to source and helping them on ideas on how to source, how to find candidates and just managing it. I think that’s why I left as well, because I found it so easy.  And there was nowhere else for me to go.  I was just like, well, I’m just sitting here doing nothing now. And then you’re paying me to do nothing. So I’d rather just go do something more challenging.

 

Neale 04:16

You’re too good to be an employee, basically.

 

Sharn 04:18

Basically, yeah, yeah, I am, I couldn’t do it again. I’ll say that, but I could never do it again. No, never.

 

Neale 04:24

So you find doing things your own way and running your own business satisfying and scratches that itch, what does it give you?

 

Sharn 04:31

I think more than anything is my work -life balance. At the beginning, it didn’t.  I thought, yeah, I’ll start working for myself and it would be fine, it would be great and I can work when I want. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But I think once you get past the three and a half years, you start to find a bit more balance because you’ve got your clients, you don’t have to work as hard. But then I was like, when I first started, I just wanted it to be me. But then as time’s gone on, I’m like, actually, I’d like to do this, but also give other people a work -life balance as well. So it scratches that itch.  I get to make my own decisions. Sometimes they’re not the best decisions.

 

Neale 05:08

Haha.

 

Sharn 05:09

But I think that’s how you learn.

 

Neale 05:11

Your decision at the end of the day, so you can live and die by them. Exactly.

 

Sharn 05:14

And I know what the repercussions are of it. And I know what I need to do to kind of then get out of it. Whereas if I think I’ll work for someone, I wouldn’t have that opportunity to do it.

 

Neale 05:23

We’ve worked together on and off for a couple of years.  Yes. You’ve never actually placed me.

 

Sharn 05:29

That’s why a lot of my clients say.

 

Neale 05:32

One of the things that always, I thought made sort of you stand out from the recruiters is sort of using video interviews. How do you think that has sort of benefited? Do you think it’s the future? How’s that sort of worked out?

 

Sharn 05:51

So the video interviews we did a lot of last year and the previous year, and it worked really well. But I think over the last maybe six, seven months, we’ve seen, there’s a lot of bias that creeps in and we’re trying to do the whole DNI perspective from our side as well. Not just with the clients, even if they’re not kind of into it, we still want to give everyone the same chance of getting that job based on their capabilities, not on how they look, how they come across. It’s if they can do the job or not, right?  And there’s a few clients, really annoying.

 

Neale 06:24

You don’t have to, Name.

 

Sharn 06:25

I’m not going to name them, but I know what they’re like. So if you know, if we were, I know if a video interview someone and they say something in a way that may be they’ve answered the question, but maybe it’s not the way they wanted them to, and then I probe, they don’t like that. Or if it’s the way they’re sat and they’re not looking at the camera. Some people don’t like looking at the camera when they’re talking and that’s fine, but they don’t like it. So we’ve kind of stepped away from video interviews from the clients that we know can be very biased. Okay.  I’ll give you an example.  So recently we placed a candidate. I did a video interview with him and there’s no way that client would have hired him at all. I can tell you that straight, but I thought, do you know what?

 

Sharn 07:09

I’m just going to send him a report instead. So I said, look, we had issues, technical issues. Here’s the report.  This is basically verbatim of what he said. He went in for an interview, he hired him, but I know if I’d sent that video interview, there’s no way he would have hired him based on the way he was coming across on video. But not everyone comes across great on video at all. So I think it’s just people making judgments and biases.  So we’re trying to move away from that. The process for recruitment is much shorter by us doing that because we’re not having to fight back and go, you know, well, why not they’ve answered all the questions and then them not actually giving us a real answer. Well, we know it’s something to do with maybe how they came across, how they looked, the way they were looking, their hands flying around, whatever it might be.  So yeah.  Okay. That’s very interesting.

 

Neale 07:53

You talked about just then sort of people don’t like looking at the camera and given what they need to sort of perform at interview. So as you know, we made a move to equity.  So we’re very much in thinking about neurodiversity. So you know, people who have autism, ADHD might need certain certainties when they come in. They might get worked up and anxious over noises or things like that.  Are more people, employers, open to that? Is that a trend that you’ve seen that more people were aware of it or is it still not really happening? Unfortunately not.

 

Sharn 08:27

It’s really bad, but what I’m finding it’s, you’ll have bigger organizations say that they are, you know, D and I focused and, you know, the one trying to help people through the process, some do, but a lot of them don’t, they’ll say one thing and do another, and it’s like, there’s only so much we can push back being external, but we can probably push more than if I was working in house because people would just tell me to probably shut up and go away. But as an external person, I feel like they probably have that bit more respect and will maybe take it on board. But I have, I don’t see it a lot, especially with smaller companies. They just want what they want and they don’t want to deviate from that, which could be hard.

 

Neale 09:08

And as a recruiter who, you know, obviously, you know people really well. I think that’s why you’ve been successful.  You’re welcome. Knowing that connection and then not being able to make it themselves or you be able to convey that must be quite frustrating.

 

Sharn 09:22

It is, but I think with the candidates, we prep them so much so that they don’t feel anxious when they’re going in. We show all the details, we tell them what the interview will be like. And thankfully our clients aren’t bad at interviewing. It’s more of a, let’s go around and show you around and get them warmed up a bit. So they’re not sitting in front of you and like, right, okay, let’s ask you like 10 ,000 questions.  It’s not like that.  And we’ve got a lot of our clients to move away from doing that and they’re getting better results. So it’s a win -win for everyone.

 

Neale 09:48

Prepping candidates is really interesting. And this will be LinkedIn, they’re gonna love this clip. What is the best thing potential candidates can do to prep?

 

Sharn 09:57

To prep… know who you’re talking to, that’s the main thing. What I would say is when you’re interviewing with a certain person in a business, just have a quick background check on them on LinkedIn, have a look at what they’ve done, or if you’re interviewing, especially with startups, when you’re working, when you’re interviewing for a startup, it’s good to know what they actually do as a business. Some people don’t even do the bare minimum, and I’m like, you need to know what they do.  And just be yourself.  I always say to people, don’t pretend to be something you’re not, because if you go in, and you’re being yourself, and they don’t like that, it’s never gonna work anyway.

 

Sharn 10:33

So just be yourself, know the business, what they do as a minimum, what you wanna get out of your career, does it align with you? And I always say, I have questions that you can ask them, and we’ll help them with those questions, and go, from the screenings that we do, we know what’s most important for them, because we do that before we even talk about a job.  So we’ll go, okay, this was really important for you. So to hear it from the horse’s mouth, make sure you ask these questions at the end, because you’re also interviewing them. It’s not one -sided anymore.

 

Neale 11:00

to employers, and I know they answer this because I do this when I’ve recruited, they look at candidates’ social media, LinkedIn profile, a few top tips. What should you do for your LinkedIn profile or your social media job interviewing? You’re going to get looked up, how do you want to come across?

 

Sharn 11:20

Your firstly, your LinkedIn profile picture shouldn’t be you having a great time on holiday with alcohol in your hand. Well, it is great for like Instagram and whatever, but I think LinkedIn, you can be personable, but not to the point where you’re, you know.  Yeah, because that’s not you all the time, is it?  It’s just you, a snippet of you. But also, I think with LinkedIn, a lot of people don’t post, but I know a lot of people aren’t allowed to because of where they work. And I speak to so many candidates and they’re not allowed to post, not allowed to like certain posts, they’re not allowed to comment on like, you know, a competitor’s post, even if it’s their friend that’s working there, they can’t do it. It’s like, you’re not allowed to do that. You’re not allowed to like talk about anything on LinkedIn. So a lot of them can’t do it.  But I say, if you can’t do that, at least talk about what you’re doing at work or what you’ve achieved.

 

Sharn 12:10

Or if you manage a team, I don’t know, one of my clients is great. He always raves about his team, what they’ve achieved. Just congratulates them on LinkedIn and it just shows what you are, what type of leader you are. And people remember you.  So when you’re looking for a job, people will go, oh, that guy.  And just remember you. So if you’re not compost personal stuff, I always say, try and post something about work or what you’ve learned, or it can be achievements you had, not just your current job, but previously, or what, you know, the kind of people that you’re like working with, or you can even talk about social things, but not to the point where you’re getting political. I think when you get political, I think that’s when.

 

Neale 12:48

It can turn one people off. Very tribal, the country, aren’t we?

 

Sharn 12:52

Yes. As much as it is a free country to speak, I think when you’re being looked at by employers it’s important to watch how you say things to certain people, especially when you’re commenting on people’s posts or liking certain posts that probably isn’t what you should be liking. You probably should be liking that stuff on Instagram or Facebook, but not on LinkedIn.  Yeah.  Keep it professional.

 

Neale 13:15

Show personality, but in a PG friendly way?

 

Sharn 13:19

I mean I swear all the time on LinkedIn that’s me but I can do that cuz of my business no one can tell her how to speak on you can’t say that oh yeah I can because why not

 

Neale 13:29

So you said yourself, you like helping people, you did as a team leader, that’s why you want to be a recruiter. You’ve got great tips for candidates, you want the work -life balance to be good, ask them the right questions. Ultimately, they don’t pay you.  No.  The organisation does. So I suppose I’m asking, who’s your master? Who do you feel you have to serve the most?

 

Sharn 13:55

I don’t, I think it’s equal.  I think it should be equal. And I think when you work in house or even, when you work in house, you have to work for the business, right? It’s like, we’re important.  These candidates aren’t.  Unfortunately, that’s the way it is in a lot of businesses. When you’re a recruiter or an agency, it’s just get the numbers, I don’t care how you get them. Client is king. Whereas I’m like, actually, if you don’t have candidates, you can’t fill your jobs. And it’s a mutual respect. For me, it has to be the same. You treat candidates how you treat your clients, how you treat candidates. It shouldn’t be any different.  And I think you’ll know that from. Yeah, but I thought it would be a good question.  Yeah.  But I think that’s where a lot of people go wrong. So a lot of the clients that I have, I haven’t actually placed, but it’s because of how I treated them through other processes. It works. Not just for me to win business, but also I’m like, they’re people at the end of the day.

 

Sharn 14:47

And if they’re gonna be moving, it’s their livelihood, their mental health, because you’ll work a lot, right? And if it’s not the right fit, then why would you even put them forward? So yeah.

 

Neale 14:56

It’s overworking with supplies. I think personality already works. People click, you tend to go back to them, and, you know, I mean, actually, I’ve clicked with people, and they’ve done a terrible job in the past, so I’m not going back to them. But, you know, there’s a lot to go in there.  You tend to hire, I would say, more on sort of personality than necessary direct skill set, general ability. Yup.  Why do you think that works?

 

Sharn 15:21

People can learn, right? You can pick up a skill, but you can’t change your attitude or your personality, unfortunately, sorry, Neil. But, um, saying that a lot of the clients that we work with, when they give us, you know, a brief, when we take a brief, we’ll go, right.  What, you know, go through it all and we’ll go, right.  Okay. If we can find someone who has 70% of that, would you still look at them? So that’s what the top three things, not the top seven, eight things that they have on their list. So we’re like top three things and the rest that can be learned within, I don’t know, three to six months. Cause when you rather have that person who has, you know, who’s willing to grow and be challenged can also grow their career, it has to be mutually beneficial. You can’t hire someone who has everything and then not offer them anything. So having someone who maybe doesn’t have everything, but has the right attitude. It works so well.  And they end up staying for years and years. It just makes sense to me.  So.

 

Neale 16:16

And when you go to an organisation, they’ve got a job spec or they give you a brief, what are the things that stick out that are quite probably common that you think, no, you don’t want to include that, that shouldn’t be included?

 

Sharn 16:30

Oh yeah. Um, the desirable should never be on a job. So when we work with our clients, we never send the job spec out to the candidate. We’ll send them the briefing that we’ve taken. So we’ll put little document together and send it over because the job description is rarely ever right. They’ll go, Oh, I just, you know, pull things off.  They’ll go, Oh no, we don’t need that. Oh, I didn’t realize that was on there. I’m like, where did she get some information from? I’ll just pull things off Google. I made one.  And that’s what most people do.  Really?  Unfortunately, yeah. They don’t sit and actually write a spec. They’re like, Oh, what’s most closest?  We’ll just pull things together and, Oh, this is what we need. And I’m like, do they really need a master’s degree? Oh no, I don’t know why that’s on there.  Okay. But you’ve put the advert out previously with it on, which is why you probably had no applications either.

 

Sharn 17:14

So it was so important just to take those bits out. You don’t need it.  That’s what I always say. What your wants versus your needs. Because you could want everything. What do you actually need them to do? And the rest can be taught.  Yeah.

 

Neale 17:27

Brilliant. And we’re engineers and we work on a spec sheet, so we need specification before we can start anybody of work. It’s pretty much the same, right?  Yeah.

 

Sharn 17:36

Mm -hmm. Same thing.

 

Neale 17:37

same time. So you mentioned education people thinking they need someone with a master’s or a bachelor’s degree or even A levels. How important is that, especially as candidates get older?

 

Sharn 17:52

Not at all. And I say that because every client I speak to, when I ask them, they usually go, oh yeah, I deal with someone who’s got a degree, and I’ll go, but why? Why are they needing a degree if they’ve got three, four years experience? If they’ve got the work experience, why does the degree matter? And they can never answer me.  They can’t actually come up with an actual real answer, and I’m like, okay, but if we find someone who can do the job, wondering if we can fit in well, maybe you can teach them 20% of the role. Are they not worth your time and money?  Oh yeah, actually, we’d consider it.  So they’re just educating clients. Sometimes when you don’t, and I never used to push back when I used to work at an agency, it was like, okay, whatever they say goes, because it’s client’s king, never, never, you know, what they say is what they want, and you have to go find that.

 

Sharn 18:40

But I’m like, actually, no, because if you don’t actually need it, then why are you asking for it? And as you get older, you don’t need a degree.  It doesn’t matter. I swear to God, people would rather have someone in who has the experience, hands -on experience of working than someone who’s got a degree with no experience, or is not as capable as someone who already has experience. So you could have someone who has a degree, and same amount of experience, but the guy without the degree is more capable, and a quick learner, and is able to just get on with things. They’re going to hire this person.

 

Neale 19:15

I don’t think I’ve honestly ever been asked for a copy of my degree in any job. No.  And I’m like, you have it loads them.

 

Sharn 19:22

Mm -hmm. Yeah, no one asks for it. You could say you have one and don’t do this But you could say you have one and just not give it them.  So don’t recheck. Do they know which I think it’s awful I think when it comes to your accreditations Within engineering they’ll probably ask for those However, like I said, it doesn’t as long as you can do your job and you can do it really well People aren’t that bothered anymore

 

Neale 19:44

So if you were to advise someone who’s finished A levels or even GCSEs, you’ve got universities now with huge fees. I mean, you know, six, seven times the amount I had to pay when I went versus someone who could, you know, go into a paid apprenticeship.

 

Sharn 20:05

Yeah.

 

Neale 20:06

without any bias for you, what would your general advice be? Is it monetary things, the experience of university worth that? Is the degree worth that for the career versus hands -on experience? What would be your advice?  You’ve got a daughter, what’s your advice? Tell the kids.

 

Sharn 20:27

See, if I had to tell my child, and I say to my cousins all the time, do an apprenticeship, make some money. But I think a lot of people get put off apprenticeships because a lot of people go to uni for the uni life, the freedom, but it’s like, you can still do that, but a lot sooner if you were to just do an apprenticeship, then the apprenticeship gives you more options because when you go into an organization, you’re not just stuck doing one job, you get to have a feel around different departments. So you can see actually which one do I enjoy most rather than going through your whole degree, figuring out you’re not actually interested in half the subjects you’re doing, and then going out into the workplace and going, oh, but I want to do this and I want to be paid X amount, but you’re not going to get 35 grand.

 

Sharn 21:09

Sorry, with no experience.  You need to kind of start from the bottom. And I think people who go to university are sold that dream of get a degree, get a job.  And that’s not the way, unfortunately, that’s just not the way it is. People want to hire people who have experience, whereas you do have larger companies, I would say, who do the graduate schemes, which works really well, but you’re fighting against thousands of grads. All the other grads. Yeah, so why not do an apprenticeship, earn your money, understand which parts of engineering you actually enjoy, and then you can stick to that one aspect that you love. Or if you like multiple things and startups, people like multi -skilled engineers that can do a bit of quality, a bit of production, or whatever it might be. So it gives people more options, I feel. So I’d always say probably leaning towards apprenticeships. Yeah, yes.

 

Neale 22:00

You always tell the candidates to ask questions. Yeah, sure.  Look interested.  Do the research. Don’t turn up unprepared.

 

Sharn 22:06

Mm -hmm.

 

Neale 22:07

What are three red flag questions that they shouldn’t ask an employer?

 

Sharn 22:12

three red flag questions.

 

Neale 22:14

because you can coach the candidates, say, have some questions prepped, they go away. I mean, I can think probably maybe one or two, but, you know, what would you avoid? You take my questions.

 

Sharn 22:24

See, I asked them to just be honest and ask all the questions they want, because I feel like if they ask a red flag question in an interview, is that what they’re going to be like when they join the business?

 

Neale 22:37

Okay.

 

Sharn 22:38

and you don’t know, do you? Whereas if you prep the candidates and say, don’t say this, don’t say this, don’t say this, and they don’t say it, but then they’re going to the workplace and they’re a totally different person, then you’re a bit taken back like, but they weren’t like this in the interview.

 

Neale 22:50

man.

 

Sharn 22:50

So you can prep them to do the right things for them. So I’ll never tell them the answers of, this is what you need to say. It’s always, these are the questions you need to ask to make sure it’s right for you. Make sure you ask them.  But I never say don’t say anything. I mean, for instance, a lot of people say, don’t ask about the money.  But I’m like, if you wanna ask about the money, ask about the money. If you wanna ask about the progression, ask about the progression. But you can’t just ask about the money. Why do you want, how do you think you’re gonna get that money? Progression, right?  So maybe ask about progression and career development. Who in the company’s also moved up into the role that you wanna go into that’s maybe been in your position. But I don’t have, and it’s shocking because a lot of people say don’t ask these questions, but I don’t do that.  Never have done.  Well, I say never have done. I haven’t since I’ve started my own business and I feel like it works well.

 

Sharn 23:36

What questions are you thinking?

 

Neale 23:39

I was just going to, I don’t know, I wouldn’t say money because it changes when you’re younger versus older. So when I was younger, I probably wouldn’t have pushed about money and progression because I just wanted the job. What I find, which either works or it doesn’t, I think at my level, is I’ve got proven success in certain areas.  Well, it’s not a big headed. I’ve just performed well in some places, got results and do marketing. I know it.  It’s kind of a question of like, if I go for a job, I know I can do that job. It’s more of a case, are we going to get on?  And is this going to be worth my time?  Because as I get older, I want to work for a company that does good, doesn’t really do harm, which is where it fits in. It sounds like I’m doing a sales pitch for Ignis now, doesn’t it? But that was one of those key things for me. I’ve got young nephews, I don’t want to work on stuff that’s going to waste my time if I can contribute and do something.

 

Neale 24:34

So for me, it’s more of that. I could look at a lot of jobs. You could come to me with jobs.  I’m sure I could go, yeah, I could do that. But actually, do I want to be that far from home? Do I want to work on a product? Do I want to spend my time working on this? I work in lots of different industries. And for me, it’s more of a question now of like, I can do this. Are we going to get on?  Yeah.  But when I was doing a lot of

 

Sharn 24:57

candidates that we talk to because it’s not about the money. The money, yes, is part of it because they have to be paid what they’re worth, but a lot of it is around work -life balances, any hybrid working, flexible hours, career progression, what will I learn on the product, what am I going to be working on? If they’re not interested in what they’re working on, it’s not even worth having the conversation because they’re not going to be interested, especially if they’re not actively looking for work. There’s a massive difference. Yeah, coaching versus…

 

Neale 25:26

There, yeah. Work -life balance, working from home, really, really interesting. Everyone’s got an opinion on it.  Working from home, what’s your take?

 

Sharn 25:36

I think it depends on the job you’re doing.  Yeah. So with the business with tech waves, so I’ve got David, he’s lovely. He’s down in Somerset. Shout out to David. And yeah, shout out to David, best hire ever. He is, so basically he comes to the office once a month, two days a week, but I trust him to get on with it. You’ve got to have that trust there, right?  Yeah.  And the flexible working and the hours or whatever. But I think when you’re working in engineering, especially when you’ve got to work with other people quite closely in different departments, you can’t be working from home, especially if you’re in a startup and you’re trying to build something.

 

Sharn 26:11

You sitting at home in the corner and you’re, you know, living room with your TV on or whatever you’re doing. Everyone has a TV on.  It’s not live.  Let’s not pretend we don’t, even I do. And then working on something and not really interacting with the people or you hear conversations going on and you’re like, Oh God, if that’s going to be an issue, I need to maybe alter my design. Maybe that’s not going to work. When you’re sat there for two, three days, working on whatever you’re working on, you go in and they’re like, Oh, we’ve checked that that’s changed because you don’t have meetings or meetings or meetings in some people in some places do. But if you’re doing that from home, you’re not talking to people, you’ve got a problem. If you’re like in the production floor or whatever, you can just bump into someone and ask them a question. When you’re sat at home, you have to wait for someone to reply to your team’s call.

 

Sharn 26:56

They might not have any reception.  It might be in a meeting.  Things can get done so much quicker. And I think it’s so important understanding that you need to have that balance where I feel like the older generation do get it and they prefer much prefer being in than at home. Whereas the people coming up through ranks, a lot of them want the, Oh, but I can work from home two days a week.  It’s like you can, but what are you actually going to give back to the business by working from home for two days a week? It doesn’t work for every business, some businesses it does. But again, if you’re working in a really high volume, fast paced business, I feel like you need to be in more than at home.

 

Neale 27:32

Employers who don’t like people working from home, not say in all cases, do you think some of it’s a trust issue?

 

Sharn 27:41

I think it’s more of a control issue.

 

Neale 27:43

Right?

 

Sharn 27:44

I wouldn’t even say it’s trust because through Covid, it was proven that people come work from home and still get their job done, right? I think it’s the more of they were pushed into that and they didn’t like it.  And now it’s like, actually, no, everyone’s coming back in. And it’s like, but why?  And they haven’t really got a reason. It’s just all fluff. I just think it’s a ego control play. Everyone needs to be in the office. You have to be seen, which I partly get being seen. I don’t think unless you’re being seen by the right people, you’re ever going to get that promotion, so you’ve got to be really tactical if you’re working from home and how you get and how you’re seen by those people that would be progressing you up the ranks, saying, oh, they’re doing a brilliant job. They’ve done this because if you’re not in the office, you’re not be able to say you’ve done it, people aren’t going to know you’ve done it.

 

Neale 28:31

Thank you.

 

Sharn 28:32

It’s hard, I think.

 

Neale 28:34

I think there’s a lot of senior people as well. It’s when you get to a senior and do a sort of direct level, a lot of your actual job is interacting with the team, having face -to -face meetings. They know they can’t do their job without people in, or they have to be in.  And it’s kind of a, well, if I’m in, I need this for my job, everyone else needs it for their job, potentially.

 

Sharn 28:56

Yeah. I mean, I know a lot of directors that probably work from home more often than not, but their team need to be in.

 

Neale 29:03

Yeah. Yeah, it’s crazy.

 

Sharn 29:06

I always find the higher you go up the more flexibility there is there’s more leniency But the lower down you are in the ranks you they expect you to be in and it could be a trust Thing I don’t know, but then I know a lot of companies hire Directors who they know already from previously so they’ll just get the job done regardless Yeah, and then they’ve got their team who they don’t really know that well So it’s hard to get that yeah, it is and I always I find it so strange Some of my clients are happy with the flexible working and if they don’t provide hybrid working There’s always flexible working like ours whatever as long as the work’s done. They don’t care.  They don’t count the hours, which is great But then some of them are like, oh no, but we’ve got meetings at 9 o ‘clock So they need to be in at 9 o ‘clock with the God drop the kid off. What are you gonna do?  Okay, but they need to be in at 9 Sorry flexible working is it?

 

Neale 29:59

so speaking of flexible work in perks benefits there was a time I remember the time when a free beer on a Friday and a slice of pizza was

 

Sharn 30:11

I think you should keep me going. That was a…

 

Neale 30:12

that’s the culture that is yeah we know now it’s not really a culture what what are the benefits people looking for what what do candidates really want what’s really important to them as I guess I’m asking

 

Sharn 30:24

they would rather have flexible working over a Friday pizza. They’d rather go home and not have a beer with their peers at the sea every day, in all honesty. I think the majority of this has come from COVID because people realize how much they’re actually missing out on when they’re not, when they’re at work. So most people just want to go home after a week of work, on time, not do silly hours, and just have a work -life balance. That is literally what people ask for. First question, oh, is the flexible working, hybrid working, how many days from home?  Are those that don’t entertain the conversation?  And you’re like, okay, well, the pension’s a bit better. Yeah, but I’m not retiring for so many hours.  You know, it doesn’t really matter to me. Healthcare probably is one that a lot of people do like for their families, but other than that, honestly, working, flexible working, hybrid working, it’s like the only thing people care about. I think a lot of people.

 

Neale 31:16

as well over covid invested more in their home so i know friends who really got onto gardening i’ve never given it up they’ve now got you know allotments and grow their own veg i know people sort of got back into crafts painting even my gaming and i think people got back into that and they’re now drawn as well back to them all their home life because they’ve invested in it yeah whereas they didn’t invest at the same level as before

 

Sharn 31:40

No, a lot of people that I know that I’ve placed have got young kids. So for them, like, I want to go home. I want to be able to pick my child up. I want to be able to go to the school plays. And that’s what it is.  It’s crazy. Even you’ve got, you know, people in the older generation, got their grandkids. They have them on certain days. So they’re like, actually, I need to be home at this time. It’s crazy how time has changed.  So different to like two, three years, like three, three years ago. When was Covid?  20.

 

Neale 32:06

Well, they’ve got young kids, yeah, three years ago. That’s why they’ve got the young kids, because nothing else to do with a COVID -19 kids. I know, baby boom all right.

 

Sharn 32:14

I think I’m actually.

 

Neale 32:17

Um, we talked about what candidates should do, coaching candidates, and we know work from home is important as a perk. If you could speak out now, I mean this, this will be going out on the World Wide Web. What, what, what do organizations need to do to attract the best talent?

 

Sharn 32:36

get rid of the job specs. That’s an internal document and it frustrates me because they just stick that out as an advert, put a bit of blurb on top and then they just stick it out. Candidates don’t read something.  And you know this, when you’re scrolling through the news or whatever, the hook gets you right. You’re like, oh, what’s that about?  And you start reading it. On a job description, is no one gonna click on it and actually apply that is actually interested in that job? They’ve either applied for it because they’re like, oh, it’s kind of what I do, I’ll just apply.  So they don’t really know. Whereas when we do our adverts, they’re very geared towards the business and what’s in it for the candidate. Because probably people don’t even wanna do what’s, what if something’s in it for them, right?  Human nature. No one’s gonna apply for a job where they look at it and go, oh, I hate that but I’m gonna apply for it anyway.

 

Sharn 33:27

So it’s just about being honest. I think understanding what’s in it for the person that wants to join, being totally transparent. If it’s a really shitty situation they’re gonna walk into, you need to tell them it’s a shitty situation because that will put them off applying in the first instance.

 

Neale 33:44

might attract someone. This is really tough at the minute. You need to get your hands rolled up. It’s going to be intense, but the potential rewards.

 

Sharn 33:51

100%. Very chaotic. Like, and people love that or they hate it, like I said, right? But just what’s in it for them and just being totally honest about the culture. If the culture is not great, what are you doing to try and fix it? You don’t have to write it all in the advert, but it’s just having those main points in there.  And then, then talking about what you want the person to do right at the end. If they get that bit right, they would have better applicants and probably need to use agencies less.  Yeah. You’ll still get 90% of people who apply that aren’t great and not, not suitable for the job, but you’ll get people apply who aren’t actively looking for work, but it’s pinged up to them and they’re like, Oh, this is interesting. Oh God.  Yeah.  I like that. And they apply and you’re not batting against four or five of the companies who are then they’re interviewing with you’ve got them before they’re even actively looking. So it’s understanding what that candidate wants.

 

Sharn 34:43

And I think it comes from the hiring manager as well. So the hiring manager knows why they’re working there and why they love working there. They’re the best person to ask all you and their team to figure out, okay, what do we need to put out in the advert to attract those types of people to also come and join us, but they don’t do that because they’re too busy and don’t have time.

 

Neale 35:01

What’s the health of the job market at the minute? I know engineering is concerned with AI. AI is nowhere near close enough yet to replace actual engineers. But is it a buyer’s market, a seller’s market?  What’s what’s happening out there?

 

Sharn 35:16

I would say it probably swings more towards the candidates at the moment, especially in the area that we work in, clean energy, renewables, because there’s a mass, there is still a gap. But again, if clients, hiring managers are open to hiring people who maybe don’t have everything and you’re willing to train them on 30% of the job, you could hire someone.  But the issue is they want what they want right now. And if they’re not being educated on what the market’s like, they’re waiting for six months, maybe even a year, some people for certain specific skill sets. Yeah, it’s nuts.  But that’s because they either don’t have a budget to use an agency or they’re using agencies, but they’re not sharing any feedback from, you know, from them about the market. So it’s definitely the candidates’ favor. So that’s why I say you’ve got to understand what you have to offer someone to come and work for you. Because if you don’t know that, you can’t hire anyone. What’s the point?

 

Neale 36:17

Thank you for your time. It’s been fun.

 

Sharn 36:19

Yeah, me too.  It has.  Amazing.  Thanks.

 

Neale 36:21

You’re welcome.