Neale 00:22
Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Another Bright Spark podcast. I’m your host, Neale Mighall. And today we’re at the National Museum of Computing in Bletchley Park with director of museum, Jacqui Garrad. Hi, Jacqui.
Jacqui 00:34
Good morning.
Neale 00:35
Good morning. And there’s loads I want to drill down into today. One of the things that we spoke about on the phone was representation and people getting the recognition deserved because we’re here in Bletchley Park, Alan Turing obviously a big name, Ada Lovelace, also a name that people bound around when they’re talking about computing and the history of computing. But there are quite a few underrepresented people, aren’t there?
Jacqui 00:59
There are actually, and there are far too many. We could be here for years talking about them. But I do think that, yes, we should look at the past and we should also look at the current, you know, because we talk about the Ada Lovelace, the Tommy Flowers, maybe, the Alan Turings, the Bill Tarts, Gordon Welchman. But there are so many other people, you know, these people in the war and beyond the war worked together, built things, problem solved, you know, came together to find solutions. And we’re here now enjoying the benefits. But sometimes we just go with sort of the pick of the bunch. And I think it’s a shame because actually, I don’t think any one person, you know, can achieve great things on their own. Yeah.
Neale 01:39
So give us a few examples. Who do you think deserves a bit of recognition? Well, what are the stories?
Jacqui 01:43
Yeah, we did. So obviously we have the world class working collection here at the museum. And we start from the 1940s. So we often talk about the Turing-Welchman Bombe and we say Alan Turing. But again, you have the Gordon Welchman’s and you have many other people that were there, you know, doing great things. The women, forgive me, but there were women here in the war running these machines and everybody’s job was so important and equal. You look at Tunny and Colossus, our exhibitions there. Again, we talk about Tommy Flowers and we are recognising him more at the moment, which I think is beautiful. But you have all of the colleagues beside them, beyond them that were doing things to make those things work. And when we celebrated Colossus 80th last year, we actually created an exhibition and we found hidden figures. And that’s the only thing we can say. So Professor Brian Randell had interviewed many people that had worked with Tommy Flowers. And on these transcripts that we’ve now converted, so people can actually, I’d almost say hear the ramblings, right? Some of the names, we don’t have the surnames. We still don’t have the surnames. So it’s remarkable you hear these engineers talking about their journey of building these machines here, but we don’t know the surnames.
Neale 02:54
So there’s someone called Gordon, for example, who was just like, oh, Gordon did X, Y and Z. Who is, who is that chap?
Jacqui 02:59
Yeah. And I just think there is so much research. You know, things are coming out every day. Every time someone comes to this museum, you know, or other museums or people are researching material or there might be a family member that said, oh, I didn’t realise this, but I found my mum or dad’s diary and they were here on Bletchley Park doing great things. You know, so that’s what’s exciting about, I think, the journey we’ve got ahead of us is to find these people and celebrate them.
Neale 03:25
Yeah, personal stories as well. You say family members, it’s someone’s connected anecdotes. I mean, how do you even go about that sort of, you know, obviously someone comes to you and says such and such has evidence of a family member. Where would you begin?
Jacqui 03:39
Well, I think, you know, we all know that in the war, you signed the Secrets Act. You were told, you know, you came here, you did your job and you, you know, you went again or maybe you stayed here. But actually, it happens in the most random ways. So we had a couple of visitors that came through one of our volunteers and they came in and they said, my dad passed recently and he worked here and here is some material. So sometimes they’ve kept these materials or whatever they may be.
Neale 04:03
Yeah, of course. And everyone steals from work, a pencil, plans for a bomb.
Jacqui 04:08
Maybe a bit of stationery. You know, a few post it notes or a stapler, you’re right. But no, so that’s the way it comes through. We get a lot of people coming from all over the world that will write into us and say, actually, I’ve got a piece of material or I found this in the loft. That is a big one. I found it in the loft. Is it any good? I have to say anybody that finds anything that they maybe don’t want, please always contact one of the museums or, you know, whether it’s GCHQ and ask first, because there may be something really beautiful about someone, you know, a really important part of history to fill a gap.
Neale 04:39
OK, I’ll get some links and put in the description down so people can find it. So in terms of funding, you’re museum, you’re a charity, we’re just discussing how important these stories are to keep alive. People bring you documents, evidence, but then you have to spend time and money investigating that, discovering more, you know, how important that is at the museum and how do you allocate funds accordingly?
Jacqui 04:40
Yeah, it’s a challenge. I mean, everything in the world is a challenge at the moment. We’re all navigating our way, which, you know, is you can take that as a, you know, your own uphill struggle or you can say, right, every time you achieve something, it’s great. So charities do struggle. I think museums are probably not… they’re classed as a luxury. But when we get something that we feel that is really important, for example, Betty Oliver’s diary, and that was given to us on a very special occasion.
Jacqui 05:29
And we were lucky enough to have an exceptional curator that basically could look at that diary, put it on display for a short period, you know, with the right lighting and everything. You’ve got to think about all of these things, the conservation. And we were lucky that we could do that quite simply. But when you get a research project, it takes money and people and resource and it’s quite hard. But we do have opportunities as charities to go out and apply for grants. We’re very lucky. We’ve got a huge pool of people that support us. And if we do a fundraiser for something that’s social histories, you know, oral histories, preserving the past, but investing in the future, we’re quite lucky that we get that. But it’s time. Time is the most precious thing. And we don’t have enough of it.
Neale 06:10
No, everyone’s going to run out of it. Yeah, absolutely. You said something interesting just then. You said museums seen as a luxury and there was a little bit of scorn in your voice, as you said, because I don’t necessarily think it is. I mean, this place has literally changed people’s lives and it makes impression. Earlier you were talking about the kids and what it means to them. Yeah. How how what impact does it have on on young people?
Jacqui 06:32
Well, I think the museum, when I say luxury, I feel that, you know, with the way the economy is at the moment, you know, we’ve got this cost of living and I think everyone’s feeling it. You know, do you, you know, put fuel in your car or do you go on a day trip to a museum? No, we’re not a free museum. Unfortunately, we have bills to pay and we have a collection to maintain.
Neale 06:51
You know, these are very, very clean, not dusty.
Jacqui 06:54
So we we I think, you know, I personally would go to a museum and take my grandchildren. But I think that numbers in museums across the board from the research that’s been done, numbers are falling. And I do think that museums have an impact. They tell a story. They engage in people as, you know, they work hard to become accessible. So it is for the whole family. And, you know, you come through a door of a museum, you hopefully have the most amazing time talking to the volunteers, the staff, understanding the stories that are preserved and shown to you. And you leave having been impacted. It might spark some inspiration. You might want to go to work for a museum. With us, we do a lot of hands on stuff. So we are working. We are one of the, you know, fewer museums that work. We want people to come and immerse themselves in, you know, getting hands on with these BBC Micros, for example, go back to when you were at school and, you know, write your programmes. But it takes a lot of work. Our volunteers are unbelievable. They are invaluable because they come in, they give their time and they maintain these machines. So the education can play, you know, I can play. You could have a go later. Yeah, so it’s it’s it. It isn’t easy, but I have to say the reward and the impact is is worth it.
Neale 08:05
What’s your plan to preserve that knowledge? Your volunteers are coming to look after them. How do you pass that on? Is it train the next generation or is there a plan in place? You say we’re all running out of time. Yeah, well, not to be too morbid.
Jacqui 08:15
But I personally, you know, there is no rhyme or reason. And I think, you know, you never know when your time’s up. I mean, it sounds awful, but you really don’t. So I think just embracing every opportunity. Before the dreadful pandemic, we started a piece, you know, just internally where we were recording our people because, you know, why did they come to us? How did they get involved? A bit about their past. Obviously, things sort of hit and we’ve not quite got back on to that. So for next year, the big project is an oral histories project to basically record as many people that have been in industry, are in the industry or, you know, the next generation of people, you know, inventors, the next, you know, scientists, mathematicians, computers, programmers and record them because I think get them now and record it because I think people inspire people. So I think if we can share those stories and we’ll make them publicly available for free online, so that’s an exciting piece.
Neale 08:15
That’s cool. I would have thought you’d invented a some sort of machine that can actually just take all the memories and information, upload it.
Jacqui 08:15
That we are working on that, actually. But I can’t tell you anymore. You’d have to sign your life away. Now, do you know, it’s quite funny that people come here and you’re like, I’ve had two examples where the Internet has gone down. Well, you can imagine you’ve got a queue of people coming through the door and they kind of look at you to say, the Internet has gone down. You’re the National Museum of Computing. And I kind of push back and say, well, actually, I think we can run probably 75 percent of the museum without the Internet. You know, it’s the card machines that are the problem. So that’s that’s always quite funny to kind of overcome those situations. But we give me some more time, give me a bit more funding. And then we’ll do the brain machine. And people, a few more people. We could do with a few more volunteers because, again, volunteers come in. They need to knowledge transfer and we’re not moving quick enough.
Neale 08:15
Yeah, it’s interesting. The kids come in here and sort of, you know, you said people inspire people, all without exception all our engineers, we had a YouTuber Mend It Mark and he was the same, Jason, our head engineer, everyone who’s involved in tech. It’s all inspired at a young age. So for for Mend It Mark, for example, it was the repairman came in at the back of the TV and there’s a whole new world in there. Yeah, you know, engineer Jason was inspired by space and and, you know, pulling parts together like toys and VCRs and that kind of thing. And what are examples of kids coming here and sort of going through through the ranks at the museum?
Jacqui 08:15
Oh, my God, it’s amazing. That’s just given me goosebumps, just the thought of it. The first thing is, I think you guys should come for a volunteering day. You’ve got some skills that we need.
Neale 08:15
We’ll come and fix an old VCR.
Jacqui 10:46
Yeah. But we we kind of have where we have a vast rate. So we started as a museum that was just working around the collections and the galleries, and then we started to add a lot more hands on STEM activities. We have this amazing programming, sorry, a master kids club where they can young as young as nine can come in with their families. They get to work with others. They can do robotics programming. I have to say some of these kids are so, so smart.
Neale 11:13
Didn’t you see before there was a matchstick coding box? And the mom did not know what was going on.
Jacqui 11:17
Yeah, we we’re doing machine learning with that’s what we try and take away from some screen time, I think, going back to the paper based stuff. And, you know, things don’t just appear on your phone. So someone’s got to scribble it out and, you know, draw or design what they’re going to do.
Neale 11:31
Well, it’s how it started off. You go back to the origins, the basics. Yeah. Before the phones, before these. This is this is what we had. Yeah.
Jacqui 11:31
And I think if kids can learn this way, then they can learn to develop and then start to program these things. But I have to say, you know, whether it’s the ambassador kids program or we do a full learning program, it’s Samford awarded, which means that we have got the stamp of approval that we’re running a very, very good program. But we have to run our program for the learning, you know, for schools from across the world. So it’s not just UK. A lot more girls are coming in, which is amazing. But we run alongside the curriculum. So but we use our collection. So you will program on a 1980s machine. You will learn about the history of computer science or you might want to learn about women in computing. For example, we try and, you know, work those sessions so people can really learn, take something back. So, you know, it’s not just a day trip. It’s something tangible they can use in their future. Or maybe go, I want to be a mathematician or a scientist.
Neale 12:29
Well, we’ve got to be introduced in some way.
Jacqui 12:30
Yeah. And I think we’re in addition to education and we’d like to support that, that there’s a gap between education and industry, I think. So coming to us, we try and engage industry in education and then, you know, hopefully inspire them to think, oh, I could be a graphic designer or I could, you know, they could be anything, you know, the world is your oyster when you’re a young person, but just try to find what is going to work for you.
Neale 59:59
To have that spark of inspiration?
Jacqui 12:53
Yeah, I think so.
Neale 12:54
You have to try different things as well. Yeah.
Jacqui 12:56
Well, you don’t have to make your choices at 15, do you? Although you’ve got this GCSE thing happening and you’re like, oh my God, but actually, no, just come and get hands on and understand that you might, cyber security, what is it? You know, because there are so many different elements. What’s AI, what’s programming, what’s an architect, you know, so much, and we can help.
Neale 13:12
And it’s the same with exactly the same with some of the engineers that we’re talking about. You’ve got so many different specialisms you can go down, get a taste for everything or something and then whatever, see the interest of the engineers, the things that really spark their inspiration. Some people just really get into FPGA. They’re all somewhere, it’s hardware or, you know, they just find their niche and just run with it. Do you have any connections with education to schools? Come to you, obviously, the school trips and stuff, but any sort of curriculum, because you guys obviously have the knowledge, and could it be transferred?
Jacqui 13:47
Within our pool of volunteers and trustees and staff, yes, we have a huge amount of knowledge and obviously with our partners, you know, externally and sponsors, we kind of, we are quite a good hub of knowledge. We work very closely with a lot of schools and universities and we are working harder to work with primary schools because I think, you know, kids need to start as young as possible if they want to, or you can maybe inspire them to get involved. I think the mission or my personal hope would be that we would become a centre, not centre of excellence, but a hub and a go-to where maybe, you know, when you’re studying computer science or other subjects, it might be history, you could come to us as a placement and other museums, we could build this collaboration where you get the hands-on experience.
Neale 14:31
On the original machines.
Jacqui 14:32
And university students, you know, the engineers that you’re employing, surely if they came to somewhere here and got physical hands-on experience and something tangible, they had an impact because they they restored something or built something or engineered something, that would be my vision for the future and that’s my personal vision but like I think just create opportunities for others and I think the world can become a better place even if it’s only in this kind of bubble.
Neale 14:54
That’s a great vision, yeah. You started here as a volunteer, you’re now director. You obviously love it.
Jacqui 15:01
I do.
Neale 15:01
You do. You can tell by the way you talk about it. What are the origins of that? How did this start, obviously, before your time? What was the…
Jacqui 15:10
So the story that I sort of, or the message I relay is that, you know, our founders, Margaret and Tony Sale, who aren’t with us anymore unfortunately. When I first came here in 2012, I got to meet the great Margaret Sale, whose husband was Tony Sale, who rebuilt Colossus with a team, okay, did not do that on his own.
Neale 15:29
It was a Gordon, a Barry, a Janet.
Jacqui 15:32
I didn’t get to meet Tony, unfortunately. He passed nine months before I joined and came to this wonderful site and I started volunteering in the shop and it was open a couple of days a week and it was a very, they were just a beautiful group of very, very intelligent individuals bringing machines to life, you know, curating exhibitions, you know, as best they could. The journey for Margaret, I think what she told me, and obviously I spent a lot of time with Margaret personally, is that she was approached, her and Tony were approached by a group of veterans in the 1990s, I believe, because there was a lot that happened here on the site after the war with the post office, training centres, BT, again, at some point as well on the site. But the journey that she told me is that the veterans said, we need to save this Bletchley Park site, look, various buildings have been knocked down. So Margaret in her 60s, with Tony in his 60s, I don’t know the names of the veterans, I’m afraid that story’s gone. Or maybe not, so I can tell you something later. But basically they decided to rally around and it was a group of enthusiasts, people that were passionate about saving this and they basically took care of the mansion and the buildings and the whole site and slowly evolved to things, social medias came out, I think the trust board at Bletchley Park for the whole site grew. And it just evolved. And I mean, look at it now, Bletchley Park Trust site is absolutely remarkable. Their exhibitions are amazing. And we’re on the same site and the National Museum of Computing is just so far forward now. We’ve still got a lot of work to do. So yeah, I think the journey started with just a group of people saying, this has got history, we need to save it.
Neale 17:11
And people love to talk about the Second World War, it has to be a favourite topic of conversations or any relation to that latch onto and try and this is the stuff we can talk about around that as well.
Jacqui 17:21
I mean, I just think it’s remarkable that you think that, you know, I think my age group, you know, late 40’s, you know, we think about how long we got to retire, but at 65, 70, I would hope that maybe I had and I was volunteering. Yeah. But they came here to start here. So Tony’s off, I always say off on a tangent, you know, going off to find bought parts to build Colossus here in this world’s first purpose built computer centre block age. And Margaret is, you know, God knows what, sweeping the floors, making tea, touring people for a pound. I just I wish I was here. I missed it. But we are custodians of Margaret and Tony’s collection. Yeah, we have been bequested, not only Colossus, but all of their, their life’s work. So again, this is a massive archive project that we need to fundraise to do. But I’m hoping that there’ll be some beautiful stories in there that we can tell.
Neale 17:25
Yeah, they’ll be proud. I mean, you were telling me before about some of the people coming through and the volunteers now who’ve gone into engineering and that’s just inspirational. Yeah. So you’re keeping the legacy alive.
Jacqui 17:25
It is. Yeah.
Neale 17:25
What are the next couple of years look like?
Jacqui 17:25
Someone asked me this a year or two ago, actually on a recording. What does the next two years look like for this museum? Well, in the last couple of years, we’ve become a nationally styled accredited museum. We have successfully refurbished quite a vast amount of the museum, which wasn’t easy. We would like to grow our offerings. So for all audiences, focus more on our accessibility, because again, I think you’ve got to focus on the accessibility of not only the building, which is quite challenging, being a World War Two listed building, but again, bringing in more people. So our education program is very, very popular, but I want to keep that momentum going. I’d like to work harder to bring, or we, I say, I always think it’s my, you know, my museum, it’s not my museum, but to grow the audiences, but also make sure we’re accessible for those that don’t have the funding to come into the museum. We work a lot with industry. I would like to say that in the next couple of years, we would have an engineering workshop, which is funded and it becomes a place where not only do we support industry, other museums and education, but it’s also a fuel, a bit of a maker space. So this would be to help other museums restore a kit and equipment they’ve got in storage. Working with university students or college students to actually work with the volunteers. It would be all great resource in this world. That would be a central hub. And I think engineering is a really important part, but obviously some of these machines might need to be restored, but then they might need some programming or software with it. So it kind of keeps evolving. We’ve got a whole storage unit full of staff and it would be great to have it here, but actually open it up to people, give them skills whilst restoring. So that would be amazing.
Jacqui 20:05
We’re OK. The visitor numbers are good. I hate to say that because I feel it’s but we’ve worked really, really hard to grow. We want to keep growing our pool of staff in our team because again, the heritage industry is not easy to work in. It really isn’t. But I think if you find the right people with the right passion and drive, it really is an opportunity. So we’ve got a great trust board, a huge trust board actually. Now we’ve got 10 on the trust board and they’ve all got really diverse skills and they’ve got experience, which helps, you know, because they’ve got a passion or a drive for what we’re doing. It used to be survival. That would have been my answer. But I think we’re beyond survival mode now. We’ve got strong foundations and I would like to just make sure that everybody in the world knows that we exist and gets the opportunity to visit physically or virtually.
Neale 20:53
So you get a lot of people who are passionate, a lot of people who are going to come because they love computing, they love engineering, they’re really interested. For people who might be watching now, who are maybe working in the tech industry in a sort of like a marketing role or sales role who aren’t hands on technical, why should they come? Why should they come and visit?
Jacqui 21:13
Why should you come to the National Museum of Computing? Because it is a world class working collection with the most amazing volunteers. I cannot tell you if you look at any of our reviews, all you hear and you can see is that they come to the museum. They maybe weren’t looking forward to it because it’s computers, but actually it’s not just the computers. It’s preserving history. It’s telling the stories from the 1940s, but it’s also technology and computing affects everyone on the planet. I cannot think of the scenario. Even if you lived on a desert island, you’re going to have to have some supplies delivered. Do you know what I mean? So I think we, yeah, well, yeah, I mean, and the drones, you know, but do you know what I mean? I think, you know, we are working harder to cater for more people, but I think if anything, if you’re not interested in the hardware, what about the people? Because there are people that lost their lives, you know, and we’re here and we need to build on that legacy. What did they leave and then carry on with the solutions and the innovative ideas. And I think I just like, I can’t tell you, I love this place. It’s just, you come in, you’re immersed, it’s the smells, it’s the touch, it’s the sounds. You know, you get to touch things and engage.
Neale 22:21
I said when we walked in, it smells like a library.
Jacqui 22:22
Yeah. And I just think, come in and I don’t think you’ll be disappointed. One of my things, you know, when we have corporate groups coming in, I’ll say, look, you know, have you ever been here before? And you know, they raised their hands and if they haven’t, I’ll say shame on you, but you’re here now. And then they leave and they’re buzzing because again, it might be that you might bring your team and they’ll say, well, these laptops you’ve given us to work on are terrible.
Jacqui 22:42
We’ll bring them in here and see what other people have had to work with. And then they so I think it’s sparks innovation of where we’ve come from, where we are now and hopefully engages people to think God, where are we going to be in the future?
Neale 22:53
Yeah. And all through that, you’re preserving legacy, people’s journeys, people’s histories. Yeah. And until you invent that brain machine, then you know, it’s the best way to do it.
Jacqui 23:01
Yeah. Well, again, if there’s a pool of people that want to come and start collaborating, maybe work on this machine because, you know, I’ll be the first to get in, you know.
Neale 23:10
Excellent. All right, Jackie, thank you for joining us today.
Jacqui 23:13
You’re welcome.
Neale 23:13
Brilliant.
Jacqui 23:14
Thank you.